Comments on: fixed-width style sheets suck http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/ Tech Notes And Miscellaneous Thoughts Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:48:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: ZOG http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-31 ZOG Sat, 10 May 2008 10:56:09 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-31 Greetings! well at least your fonts are nice and chunky by default on this 22" monitor! thanks for the pointer to nosquint - checking it out now.. as Thai web sites seem to suffer this from this even more might be a winner for Nan as well. bye, ZOG Greetings!

well at least your fonts are nice and chunky by default on this 22″ monitor!

thanks for the pointer to nosquint – checking it out now.. as Thai web sites seem to suffer this from this even more might be a winner for Nan as well.

bye,
ZOG

]]> By: cas http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-30 cas Sat, 10 May 2008 06:34:35 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-30 A few people have suggested that using 'em' units rather than percentages for widths is a good idea. While there may be some cases (e.g. a sidebar) where they could be right, in the general case (e.g. the bulk of the text), they couldn't be more wrong. em units are good for specifying relative variations in font size, but not for specifying the width of a page or column. Some claim that from a designer's POV, the ability to specify that a column is X ems wide and will thus contain approximately Y many words per column line is good or even essential. That may satisfy some pet design theory or other, but it neglects to take into account one crucial fact: the correct column width, the correct number of words per line is <b><i>whatever</i></b> the <b><i>user</i></b> wants it to be at any given moment in time with whatever browser/viewer they are reading it with at that particular moment, regardless of what the <b><i>designer</i></b> thinks looks best. Doing that requires specifying the width of columns as a percentage of total space....e.g. for a 3 column layout of sidebar, content, sidebar, that might be 15%, 70%, and 15% respectively. If a web designer wants or expects me to come back to their site, they can drop any stupid ideas they may have that they CAN or SHOULD be able to control how I will view their page. The more inflexible and rigid their enforcement of their design preferences, the *less* likely I am to come back. No matter the worth of the content (although the more interesting the content, the more likely I am to make the effort to use Stylish to subvert the design and make the content actually readable for me). A few people have suggested that using ‘em’ units rather than percentages for widths is a good idea.

While there may be some cases (e.g. a sidebar) where they could be right, in the general case (e.g. the bulk of the text), they couldn’t be more wrong. em units are good for specifying relative variations in font size, but not for specifying the width of a page or column.

Some claim that from a designer’s POV, the ability to specify that a column is X ems wide and will thus contain approximately Y many words per column line is good or even essential.

That may satisfy some pet design theory or other, but it neglects to take into account one crucial fact: the correct column width, the correct number of words per line is whatever the user wants it to be at any given moment in time with whatever browser/viewer they are reading it with at that particular moment, regardless of what the designer thinks looks best.

Doing that requires specifying the width of columns as a percentage of total space….e.g. for a 3 column layout of sidebar, content, sidebar, that might be 15%, 70%, and 15% respectively.

If a web designer wants or expects me to come back to their site, they can drop any stupid ideas they may have that they CAN or SHOULD be able to control how I will view their page. The more inflexible and rigid their enforcement of their design preferences, the *less* likely I am to come back. No matter the worth of the content (although the more interesting the content, the more likely I am to make the effort to use Stylish to subvert the design and make the content actually readable for me).

]]> By: Russell Coker http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-29 Russell Coker Fri, 09 May 2008 02:29:40 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-29 http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/07/22/column-width-in-blogs/ My above post about how I solved the column width problems for my blog may interest you. The comments have some useful tips too. The main thing to consider is what to use for the minimum width of columns in a web site. If someone has a window that is 640 pixels wide it may be impossible for have proportional columns for all the text (you can end up with one word per line). Sometimes a horizontal scroll-bar is the best solution. http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/07/22/column-width-in-blogs/

My above post about how I solved the column width problems for my blog may interest you. The comments have some useful tips too.

The main thing to consider is what to use for the minimum width of columns in a web site. If someone has a window that is 640 pixels wide it may be impossible for have proportional columns for all the text (you can end up with one word per line). Sometimes a horizontal scroll-bar is the best solution.

]]> By: cas http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-28 cas Wed, 07 May 2008 13:13:44 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-28 Simon: cool to know that FF3 has good zooming. i'll think about installing it on my main machine soon...have only played with it briefly on a secondary machine. told ya blog comments were useful :) Jon: nice tip. i'll have to do some reading on the topic, and do some experimentation. Simon: cool to know that FF3 has good zooming. i’ll think about installing it on my main machine soon…have only played with it briefly on a secondary machine.

told ya blog comments were useful :)

Jon: nice tip. i’ll have to do some reading on the topic, and do some experimentation.

]]> By: Simon Rumble http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-27 Simon Rumble Wed, 07 May 2008 12:37:13 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-27 Firefox 3 has a very cool feature in that when you resize (ctrl mouse wheel or ctrl + ctrl -) it resizes <i>everything</i> &emdash; text, images, column sizes, the lot. Makes life a <b>lot</b> easier when dealing with broken web sites. PS: Hey look, I'm using your comments! ;) Firefox 3 has a very cool feature in that when you resize (ctrl mouse wheel or ctrl + ctrl -) it resizes everything &emdash; text, images, column sizes, the lot. Makes life a lot easier when dealing with broken web sites.

PS: Hey look, I’m using your comments! ;)

]]> By: Jon http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-26 Jon Wed, 07 May 2008 12:29:44 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-26 @taz: If you use percentages, your page will scale differently with window size changes as with font size changes. That makes it very hard (as a designer) to ensure your site looks consistent with all combinations of font size / window size, etc. Using ems means resizing the window doesn't cause the design to change (so elements don't jump about); doesn't cause text to reflow meaning ultra-wide paragraphs (hard on the eyes); and keeps things looking right with very large or very small font sizes. @taz: If you use percentages, your page will scale differently with window size changes as with font size changes. That makes it very hard (as a designer) to ensure your site looks consistent with all combinations of font size / window size, etc. Using ems means resizing the window doesn’t cause the design to change (so elements don’t jump about); doesn’t cause text to reflow meaning ultra-wide paragraphs (hard on the eyes); and keeps things looking right with very large or very small font sizes.

]]> By: Karellen http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-25 Karellen Wed, 07 May 2008 09:38:57 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-25 Hmmm....specifying font sizes in terms of "em"s always seems odd to me. I prefer percentages. But, yes, you are spot on. Hmmm….specifying font sizes in terms of “em”s always seems odd to me. I prefer percentages.

But, yes, you are spot on.

]]> By: cas http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-24 cas Wed, 07 May 2008 09:35:33 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-24 haven't tried FF3 much yet. if it does the same kind of thing as FF2 + NoSquint, then it's nowhere near enough. the style sheets of the problem sites have hard-coded widths specified in *pixels* so just having bigger fonts doesn't work. Opera? no thanks. i have little to no interest in proprietary software. IE7? you've got to be kidding. even if i wanted to, it doesn't run on any of my computers. no microsoft here. at all. in any case, the problem is *NOT* in my browser or my screen or on my system. it's in moronic style sheets created by clueless web designers. haven’t tried FF3 much yet. if it does the same kind of thing as FF2 + NoSquint, then it’s nowhere near enough. the style sheets of the problem sites have hard-coded widths specified in *pixels* so just having bigger fonts doesn’t work.

Opera? no thanks. i have little to no interest in proprietary software.

IE7? you’ve got to be kidding. even if i wanted to, it doesn’t run on any of my computers. no microsoft here. at all.

in any case, the problem is *NOT* in my browser or my screen or on my system. it’s in moronic style sheets created by clueless web designers.

]]> By: Erik J http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-23 Erik J Wed, 07 May 2008 09:16:54 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-23 Use Firefox 3, Opera, or IE7 they all have a feature to zoom the whole page. Use Firefox 3, Opera, or IE7 they all have a feature to zoom the whole page.

]]> By: cas http://taz.net.au/blog/2008/05/07/fixed-width-style-sheets-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-21 cas Wed, 07 May 2008 08:43:34 +0000 http://taz.net.au/blog/?p=10#comment-21 some things are better than 10 years ago, some things are worse. idiot web designers are still making the same kinds of mistakes as they did back then, they've just got more and different ways of making them. overall, details may differ, but web-annoyance levels things are about the same. as for the 1px turquoise - any idea where it's coming from? i can't find it in my style.css and can't see it in my browser (firefox 2, linux). every 1px border in style.css has some shade of grey or black. there may be some cruft left from the original theme i hacked up to make this simple black theme (Zen In Grey theme for wordpress) some things are better than 10 years ago, some things are worse. idiot web designers are still making the same kinds of mistakes as they did back then, they’ve just got more and different ways of making them. overall, details may differ, but web-annoyance levels things are about the same.

as for the 1px turquoise – any idea where it’s coming from? i can’t find it in my style.css and can’t see it in my browser (firefox 2, linux). every 1px border in style.css has some shade of grey or black.

there may be some cruft left from the original theme i hacked up to make this simple black theme (Zen In Grey theme for wordpress)

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